Behind every consistently successful fundraising organization there is one critical component – a strong, well-rounded organizational culture. Successful fundraising requires an organization-wide culture that supports and nurtures philanthropy. No one person can do it all; we all have to be doing it.
In this session you will learn:
- What distinguishes a great organizational culture from a mediocre one?
- Why is organizational culture critically important?
- And, how does a strong organizational culture translate into exponentially greater fundraising success?
Additional Materials for Organizational Culture: Why it matters and how it translates into money with Alison Rapping
Download the audio: Organizational Culture with Alison Rapping (MP3)
Download the slides: Organizational Culture with Alison Rapping (PDF)
Link to Rachel Muir's "Culture of Philanthropy" webinar: http://www.pursuant.com/fundraising-resources/creating-culture-philanthropy-breaking-walls/
Read the Transcript for Organizational Culture
Marc: Welcome to the Nonprofit Academy Presents July webinar. I am so excited that you're here. We are really in for a power packed session. Alison, can you please toggle on the slide?
Marc: Thank you. Good. We've been having a situation with the recordings being blank at the beginning. So Alison and I are trying to work together to make that not happen.
I know we have new members. This is supposed to be as interactive as possible. There is normally a hashtag right in front of you that says "NPAPresents" on it, which is the hashtag to use as you're tweeting if you have questions or if you just want to tweet about the stuff you're learning here.
There's also a question-and-answer part in your GoToMeeting webinar. Usually, the control box is on the right of your screen. And there's also a chat section. I'll try to monitor both of those as Alison goes through this. As you have questions, I will moderate those and let her know about them.
We are really honored to have Alison here today. Her website is AlisonRapping.com. It looks like you got it refreshed.
Alison: I did.
Marc: It looks good.
She and I have been around doing this for about the same amount of time, for over two decades. And it's funny to read your bio too, Alison, because you and I were both in the "40 under 40" kind of selection, which is cool. I made it by the skin of my teeth. I had like six months to go. If they hadn't made that decision, I would have been over 40, but I still made it in.
Alison has been working with all sorts of organizations. She came on my radar screen with "Chronicle of Philanthropy." She did a podcast series with interviewing people. I just like her style. I like her approach to fundraising, and as we got talking earlier this year, she was talking about the whole organizational culture that really impacts your fundraising, and that happens to be a passion of mine. And when I heard her presenting it, it seemed like she was sharing it in ways that her thought process were ways that led to like Tycely Williams' session that we were talking about how everybody needs their systems thinking in your nonprofit.
Alison seemed to complement with some of those other trainings we've had, but also give a fresh perspective. And she's got some real examples of organizations that have made the effort, which it can be a lot of effort, to actually be intentional about the culture of their organization.
Alison, it's my style of introduction to not take up more time than I need. I think I really want to get right into this session. So take it away.
Alison: First, I am delighted and honored to be here. I'm thrilled to be part of the Academy. And honestly, I take it as a great honor that you invited me.
I have a passion for nonprofit organizations. I've been in the sector pretty much my entire life and my entire career. I think one of the gifts that I've gotten is I've gotten to be a practitioner and learn from experts. So I never really think of myself as an expert in the field but a practitioner in the field who has had a lot of really tremendous mentors.
One of the things that really hit me when I started in this work was I went to graduate school and got a degree in nonprofit management, and I learned about budgets, strategy, mission and how to write a business plan, but no one ever really talked to us about what organizational culture is and what it means and how you create it.
Recently, there's been a lot of talk about this culture of philanthropy. I'm sure that we're going to talk a little bit about this as we go through the webinar. But it got me thinking that a culture of philanthropy is only going to be as successful as an entire organizational culture strategy. That a culture of philanthropy separate from an organizational culture that supports your vision, mission and values will still not get us all the way there.
I started to think a lot about what organizational culture is, because it can seem a little bit nebulous. When Marc asked me to do this webinar, I actually called friends of mine and I said, "Tell me what you think culture is, and what was good about it." I wanted to share, and I'll go to the next slide, two cultures that I've been really fortunate to be a part of, and why they worked.
The first culture was HandsOn Greater Phoenix, which was formerly called Make A Difference. We were part of the HandsOn Network, now HandsOn Network Points of Light movement building. In the '90s, there were a lot young people from mostly major metropolitan areas in the communities that said they wanted to kind of transform volunteerism. Because most of us were working full-time, we couldn't volunteer on a 9-to-5 basis. We didn't necessarily have time to do hours and hours of training. So there were these different organizations throughout the country that were starting these more episodic done-in-a-day volunteer projects.
I came out to Phoenix on vacation. I was working on the Hill. I was working thinking that I was about to become a healthcare lobbyist, and I met the founder of the Phoenix affiliate and we just spent the day together and had a wonderful time. He said, "I'd like you to consider coming out to Phoenix and taking on this job." I said, "I don't know anything about being an executive director. I have been a volunteer, but I've never led volunteers." He said, "Well, go back to D.C., and there's an affiliate in D.C. called Greater D.C. Cares, and check them out."
I went there and, within a day, I was on the phone with him saying I'll take the job, because I felt the culture. I felt the energy. And when we were building the Phoenix affiliate, we really built our culture. I don't even know if we were as intentional, but we had three distinct values that really set the tone of our culture, and we lived those values.
One of them was everybody was going to have an outstanding volunteer experience. Every person who came to us was going to have an outstanding experience. In order to create that, we had to do a lot more legwork, because you had to do a lot to have that experience really mean something. So we did a lot of reflection and we did a lot of survey research. We did a lot of volunteer preparedness with the organizations that we partnered with.
Our second value was that what we did was really going to matter in the community, that we were not going to volunteer just to volunteer, but what we did was really going to make a difference, a difference that you could see and that you could feel.
Our third value that really built our culture was that we were going to work with community partners, not for community partners. And part of that was the sense of these volunteers coming down and they're going to show you how to do things, or we're going to make something better for you. The communities we were working with were going to teach us how we were going to be better.
Some amazing things happened when we lived those three values as it related to fundraising. By having the value that the volunteer experience was going to be exceptional, we started to get a lot of businesses and a lot of corporations in our community to bring volunteers to us. We started to create a sponsorship package with the corporate partners, but it wasn't so much about benefits of getting their names on things, but it was the benefits of what we could do to support their employee engagement. How can somebody come into your organization and give their employees an experience that's really beneficial to them?
We found that by making that a part of our culture, we were able to raise a lot of money because organizations would fund us to create experiences for their employees, and then in turn for the communities where those employees lived.
That worked really well for us as a strategy for fundraising, but it was very directly tied into the culture that we were creating in the organization.
The second part of this was that we were going to be doing things in partnership. So a lot of foundation funders started to come to see what we were doing, and they would ask us to write these collaborative grants, which often can be challenging to write. But because we had said so much of our culture was that we were about collaboration, we were able to very quickly mobilize the communities that we partnered with, and we were able to get some pretty significant grants from local and national foundations to do some really interesting collaboration building work.
I was talking to one of my friends and I said, "What was it about that experience that was so good?" She said, "Everybody there was passionate about what you were doing." Like, everybody loved working in the community. If you didn't love it, you probably were going to leave Make A Difference, because we were really pretty intense. If you weren't really going to get your hands dirty, we probably weren't the organization for you. And that was okay. We don't expect our culture to be the culture for everybody. But the people that loved what we were doing really loved it. And to this day, my best friends are the people that I came up at HandsOn Greater Phoenix and HandsOn Network with.
A second organization that I want to talk about that really lived their culture, and very different than HandsOn Greater Phoenix Make A Difference. We have a very easy culture to create. Who doesn't love volunteers and puppies and kids? It was easy to create a culture that the community would support.
My brother was a public defender. He started an organization, not even with a desire to start a nonprofit. He was invited to go to the State of Georgia and start a program that Georgia was funding through their legislature, and it was a lot of money. He was going to be the director of training for how Georgia was going to reform indigent defense.
The funding was cut. He's in Georgia with a wife and a newborn child. I fly down there and he says, "Alison, I want to start a nonprofit." And I said, "John, you're out of your mind. You really want to start a corporation in the State of Georgia, be accountable to a Board of Directors and build a corporation?" And he said, "If that's what it's going to take to make sure that these young lawyers have an amazing experience and that we can transform indigent defense, then yes, I want to do it."
They had a different strategy to build their culture. They brought in trainers from all over the country, the best public defenders in the country, best law minds, best scholars, and they said to them, "It's an honor for you to come and be a part of us, so you have to pay for all of your own transportation because we don't have any money." They did.
The Board got together and they spent three days talking about what the culture was they wanted to create, and they wanted to create a culture of zealous advocacy, a culture of client-centered representation, which, for them, meant that even if the client wanted something that they didn't think was the best for the client, the client was the ultimate decision-maker of their fate. They wanted people who were in the organization who were zealous about defending poor people.
You would think that's not going to be easy to raise money for, but foundations who saw social justice as part of their movement took a risk on it because they saw the commitment that the Board had to the organization.
And then the Ford Foundation found a filmmaker and they did a documentary called "Gideon's Army," which went to Sundance, then it went to HBO, and it's now on Netflix. That movie created the opportunity not just for the few people who started it, but for any public defender to go somewhere, show the film and talk about the plight of indigent defense in America.
Just yesterday, there was a large article about private prisons and what it means, and so they have this movie that is a platform for their being able to do the work that they do.
Their fundraising is a little bit harder because it's a very special kind of person. But then you start to see the stories where everybody knows somebody who knew someone who had an experience in the indigent defense system, and they are starting to galvanize a movement. I just would say that both of those movements were really started, one not as intentionally, one much more intentionally, with building culture.
As I move onto the next slide, Marc, do you have anything to add?
Marc: No. I don't want to slow you down. We're 17 minutes in, so I want to keep going. I don't know how many slides we have, so this is good. I love the real-life examples. It's great.
Alison: I have put a lot of slides into this presentation knowing full well that we're not going to get through them all. But it was really important for me to give all of you as much information as possible to be able to utilize this.
At the end of my presentation, you're probably going to remember maybe three things that I've said. Hopefully, this document will give you tools and resources that you'll be able to use.
Another thing that I would really like to offer is that if anyone on this webinar… I have enormous respect for Marc and I have enormous respect for the work that he's doing with the Academy. I love the Academy. If at the end of this you come up with an aha or an idea and you just want to brainstorm it for a half an hour with me, I will make my phone number available to you and would be glad to set up just some brainstorming sharing opportunities. I don't want anyone to walk away feeling like there was so much content that they didn't have time to actualize it into something of action.
Marc: Wow. That's generous. Thank you.
Alison: It's my pleasure. This is just really fun and it's important work.
Marc: So important.
Alison: To when Marc was asking me, I actually have done a lot of study in culture, and I have a lot of slides from Edgar Schein that we're not going to be able to get all the way through. But I also wrote to a bunch of friends as I was preparing for this webinar and said, "What do you guys know about culture? What's new? What's different? What's out there?" And I was surprised how little response I got.
So I serendipitously started to pull up interesting things on culture, and I came across this gentleman, Robert Richman, who wrote a book called "The Culture Blueprint." If you pull this up, there's an interview with him. The interview caused me to buy the book the next day, and within a night, I had read the whole book.
Basically, what he did was he went into Zappos and he wanted to understand what was going on at Zappos. He started the Zappos Insight Academy, which now has thousands of people coming to visit Zappos. It's hard to imagine that an online marketplace for shoes was going to become the definitive culture that all others were going to either choose or have to emulate, because everybody wanted Zappos. Everybody wanted that exceptional customer service. They wanted the 24-hour free shipping. They wanted to have somebody say, "You don't know which pair of shoes you'd like? You might like this one. You might like that one. I'll send you both."
Zappos, by being very intentional about their culture, has completely transformed how we shop in America. What this book did, and I was very impressed, was he didn't write this book about Zappos. He wrote this book for you and for me to say, "Let me give you a toolkit for you to be able to implement some of this in your own organization." I would say that this could be implemented in your family. This could be implemented in one department. Even if you don't feel your whole organization would take this on, maybe one department would want to take this.
There are such good resources and tools in this book that I encourage everybody to buy it. They also have an audio book. And the funniest thing that he says in the book is, "Don't tell anyone they have to read the book. If they feel like they're being forced to read the book, they're not going to read the book." But the book has some really good, solid things that can help you actualize this quickly.
Very quickly, I want to go through a slide that just sort of talks about what organizational culture is. This slide, I think, really exemplifies it well. It's the behaviors in the individual and the groups, how people behave, how people treat each other. It's amplified by the behavior of the leaders. It's the under-the-radar shared beliefs and assumptions. It's all of the things that we don't necessarily talk about but they guide everything that we do. It's visible in the way work gets done. If you're in a very high efficiency organization that doesn't… There might be a lot of product done, maybe not a lot of talking. If you're in a place where relationships are a value, it may be different. But this is all visible.
I just really liked how this slide, very quickly, showcased some of the key points of what builds an organizational culture.
This next slide, I don't want to read through a lot of slides, but this one I do want to go through because I think it talks about the key things that who has the power, who makes the decisions.
One of the most interesting places when I consult is I always want to go into meetings. Who leads the meeting? Who sets the agenda? Who creates the agenda? Who follows up to make sure that the meeting was valuable? Who looks to make sure that the action items were done? There's so much you can learn about how an organization's culture is found by how meetings take place.
Marc: I like what you're saying, because it's not necessarily the titled person. Like in a board meeting, it could be the curmudgeon in the back row or in the far corner that's actually controlling the entire meeting. Everybody else is in accord and it could be that they're the prophetic voice of discord, but it could be that they're just usurping and creating a train wreck of a meeting. Somebody else created the agenda but they're actually controlling the meeting.
The flipside could be that I have one guy that is just a great board member and he's always for reflecting back everything on other people. He's got just a great way of not letting himself be the only decision-maker when it doesn't need to be. And he's great at being able to kind of keep delegating back to people in a way that lets them be as much as they can be. It doesn't ever seem like he's shirking responsibility, but it changes the culture of meeting. That's a really good thing to think about.
Alison: How we mark occasions, there's a huge joke at Make A Difference that if you want to make the occasion special for me, make sure there's tons of cake and balloons. But it became a joke. If you want to celebrate something with me, there had to be cake and there had to be balloons, and usually, there had to be really loud music. It was sort of funny. That was our culture. We put a lot of time into celebrating things.
In organizations, you see a lot of "we plan, we execute, we might sleep for a little while, and then we're right back into execution and planning again." So the rites and rituals of how we acknowledge people and how we celebrate, those are an important part of a culture.
The values and the priorities… I'll talk a lot about values, because I think it's the primary piece. You've got your mission, your vision and your values, and you hear a lot of people talk about "start with why." Why do we do what we do?
Values are this thing that we somehow think we have to have in our strategic plans, but do we have them on our walls? Do we talk about them in our board meetings? Do we talk about them in our planning sessions? How do we live our values? What we say our values are and what we actually do every day… It's what we actually do every day that guides the organization's culture.
So it's really important to spend a lot of time on the values. And if the values are not in concert with how things are being done, that might be a good time to bring in a facilitator to talk about this. Values dictate everything and if they're not clearly being articulated on a regular basis, something else will come in and override the values, and that will become the culture.
Symbols, I'm going to get into this in a little bit more detail. I've got some more slides on symbols. Stories and myths, what are the stories of the organization, and what are some of the things that scare people about the organization? These are all parts of what goes into the culture.
What are the control systems? How do we monitor and manage what goes on? How are people acknowledged in a positive way? How is feedback given?
I'm probably on an island in saying that I'm not a huge fan of performance reviews. I do think I'm on an island about them, because what seems to happen is we do it once a year. Somebody sits down and you go through this thing, and I think the staff person is often scared to death because they think it's going to be something that's not positive, or their raise is attached to it, and then it goes in a box and nobody ever talks about it again.
I think if we're going to have control systems that live our values, we've got to be constantly looking at performance on a very regular basis, giving people feedback, giving people rewards, giving people opportunities for growth much more than a performance review. So I'd love to hear feedback about this. I'd love to hear people's thoughts about it.
Marc: Those of you on this call, feel free to go into the questions or the chat and just say "yes" if you have an annual performance review.
I agree. I was just working with somebody, a CEO, that needs to have a real serious conversation with an employee that's not meeting goals, and the culture hasn't been regular check-ins of "how are you moving toward your goals?" So trying to come to that moment after a crisis is a lot harder than just staring it in with, "Hey, we're going to be talking about your goals every time we get together with you one-on-one. I want to help you succeed." It's a very different conversation.
Alison: Everybody talks about performance reviews. "Oh, well we do them, and therefore, we're doing things right." I'm thinking, "What does that employee do the other 40…" Nobody's giving them any feedback. So, language. These are just some of the key elements, and then.
Marc: Oh, cool. Somebody was saying that the organization she works for has every six months on what you got done.
Alison: Oh, that's great.
Marc: It's much better than 12.
Alison: Well, it's also really good that they're acknowledging, giving people an opportunity to talk about, "In six months, this is what I was able to accomplish, and this is where I need some support."
Marc: Yeah, that's great.
Alison: Are there others?
Marc: That's the comment we got.
I love this quote. It comes from "The Culture Blueprint," which is, "Culture is a feeling." And I thought, "Well, that's really interesting." And he talks about how culture, you can say it's all these things, but it's how somebody feels when they're in your office.
He talked about a reporter from the "Harvard Business Review." This reporter has met with heads of state from all over the world. He has been to every major corporation in America. But when he went to Zappos, he started to cry, and he wanted to bring his family there to see it. It felt like it was Disneyland.
In thinking about culture, if culture is a feeling, when somebody comes into your office, what do they feel? Maybe even just take a moment to write down. You don't have to put them publicly, but maybe just take a moment to write down three things that you think people feel when they're in your office.
Marc: I was just thinking about one client in the far enough past that nobody would know who it is, but there was panic and confusion and divisiveness would have been the three things a donor would have felt in there, because one employee seemed to be running the shop when the other one was supposed to be. The grenades getting shot from the person who was supposed to be reporting to the leader was just awful, and it made your head spin because you wouldn't see it coming and then all of the sudden, boom, there was yet another divisive moment. Funders didn't like that shockingly.
Alison: Funders feel culture. A funder could be 90% sure they're going to fund your project. If they walk into the organization and feel what you just said, they're done, because they're intuitive and they know and think, "There's something not quite right here." I actually think that one of the most important questions we need to ask our board members is, "What culture do you want to be a part of?"
Marc: Yeah. And then, "Are you doing the stuff needed to make it happen?" would be my follow-up. Did I say that?
Alison: I always ask board members that, because there are 10 fabulous homeless shelters. They all have different cultures. Some people want entrepreneurial, innovative, not a lot of rules. Some want more structure. The question of "What are you looking for in a culture?" are so important and I think when we interview people, we really need to know what our culture is and have some really good questions to ask because the cost of hiring someone who does not fit the culture is the greatest cost to your organization.
I think in nonprofits having a board member who does not fit the culture… Not to say that sometimes have some discourse. Healthy discourse is really important. Not everybody should be a yes person on your board. Your board should definitely be able to debate and discuss, and not agree.
Alison: But if you have somebody who totally is not a part of your culture, they don't share your values, or they may love what you do but they don't share the how you do it, it's probably not going to be a good fit. They're not going to be happy and you're not going to be happy.
One of the things that I most see culture, and it surprises me, is new employees come in. You've got this new employee and they come in, and they sit in the HR office with somebody and they fill out a bunch of paperwork, and then they go on a tour, and that's it. That's their indoctrination and orientation into the organization.
It seems that the new employee is the most important person in the room. That new employee is so vital that I'm often surprised that we don't spend more time creating at least a week's worth of onboarding for those new employees.
Marc: Even the organizations that do, like healthcare, it's usually scare stuff that the lawyers want. It's not organizational culture. It's "you can do this and you can't do that and you must wash your hands before and after each patient encounter, and you need to do this and you need to do that, and you can't accept this." Which are all important and have to get done, but you're right, if you're vacant in terms of culture too…
This is why, with the board members, I did this with them. I created the philanthropic history of the hospital for my last employed position where I would go through and just highlight some stories of giving and philanthropy and generosity, and let board members know this is the organization you're joining. People in the community step up because there are needs that need to be taken care of in our community and we want to do it in a human way, not just in a technically proficient way.
It was shocking to see the people that sat down through that training, or just through that conversation. It was kind of a coffee or something, but it was intentional. Versus the board members that didn't have any of that training, because we just needed a warm butt in the seat.
Alison: Board training and board development, I literally think we can talk about that for days, because it's so important. And we're going to get into some more specifics when we get through this slide. As we go through, I may just very quickly go through some of these slides.
Marc: I trust your judgment. Everybody, just a reminder, all the slides are already in PDF form and available for download on the organizational culture page in the online vault, so you'll have plenty to digest as you watch the replay over and over, too.
Alison: All of you have my phone number, and I'm happy to answer any questions or provide resources, or provide people who I think are far more expert than I am in some of these topics.
This is just one of my favorite quotes, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."
Marc: It's so true.
Alison: I find it so interesting that we spend a lot of time on our business plans, on our strategic plans, on our culture change documents, and rarely do we talk about culture. We talk about strategy and business. So it just was something I thought was an interesting quote.
We talked a lot about values and practice and the board members. That's really the translation, and we talked a lot about the translation.
I also think there's a really interesting narrative starting to happen with the leading experts who are thinking and writing and training about fundraising. The discussion about culture . . . I just pulled up people who I've been studying and the expertise. As I was preparing for this, I actually pulled up each of these people to see what they were writing about culture, and all of them were writing about culture. We're really seeing this as a major trend in fundraising, this discussion about culture.
Actually, I want to make a plug for Rachel Muir, who I don't know personally, but she has a great webinar that's free to download, and I just thought it was excellent and recommended it.
Marc: I'll put a link to that on the page, too.
Alison: Yet the piece of this that I still think is interesting is that we talk about a culture of philanthropy, and it's hard to have a culture of philanthropy unless it's a culture of everything. It's hard for me to see a culture of philanthropy somehow being different than the culture of our whole organization. A culture of philanthropy is part of that culture. But everything in our culture has to support philanthropy, and it has to support volunteerism, and it has to support caring about our staff.
As much as I love everything that we do, my most important client was my staff. They had to be happy. They had to be respected. They had to be trained. They had to feel like they loved to come to work. Nothing I could do was going to work if I didn't have a really engaged, supported staff.
So part of our culture has been about the employees, and that any chance I had to give them a raise, any chance I had to talk to the board about giving them something for their 401(k), it didn't matter what it was, they were producing and they were happy. Everything was going to be okay. That was part of our culture.
This quote is just so true. "Culture survives even when the leader leaves." I've been invited to go into organizations as a CEO, and I have to admit honestly I have failed miserably because I could not change culture. That experience, when it happened to me, was really detrimental. It was not something I wanted to admit. I felt like a failure. I had to think long and hard about what happened.
It wasn't to say that the culture was good or the culture was bad. It just was not a culture that I was going to thrive in. I saw all the little nuances as to why it might not be the right culture. One of them was there were no women the board. Maybe that should have been a red flag to me, but I didn't really think about it.
I think it's okay to say, "I'm in an organization. I may have the opportunity to make some changes." And I think if you read "The Culture Blueprint," you'll get some great ideas. I also think it's okay to say, "This culture may or may not be completely in sync with my values."
Marc: That forces us to have the personal leadership to know what it is we stand for. Like you, my wife and I will look at organizations and if there are no women on the board, we'll steer clear because we've seen where that goes, and that's not something. . . Life's short. We don't want to be any part of that, unless they are looking to change and that's why they're inviting my wife on board. But even then, that can be really hard. I like that, that the culture isn't necessarily good or bad, but you need to know yourself well enough to know if it's a good or bad place for you.
Alison: If I think about culture, it's relationships. These pictures are how much of this do we see in our organizations? We're all supposed to be in this together, but somehow maybe our departments are siloed, or the culture is somehow creating something in which the team doesn't actually feel like a team. And we see culture in those relationships. I think those relationships are often seen between the board and the staff, the development department and the program department, the volunteer and volunteer leader. It could be everywhere, but you really see it in these relationships.
I think sometimes we feel like we're the program staff, we're married to the to the development staff because somehow we create this culture that it's two separate things. Whereas in a really positive culture, why we have this disconnect, is that we see ourselves as part of an ecosystem that is really positive.
I just pulled up some pictures of some really good cultures. And the first is the U.S. Women's Soccer Team. How exciting. Look at this picture. This is all about culture.
But in doing some research to kind of understand how this even happened, how did the U.S. win this, well, if you look back in history, we created Title IX. And then all of a sudden, girls were playing sports, and girls were playing at the collegiate level. Soccer became very big, and there became this huge number of women soccer leagues.
If you look at Brazil, which also had a great team, Brazil doesn't have Title IX, so girls played soccer all of their lives, but when it came to organized soccer, they weren't playing. So you could see a lot of things in this picture, but it's all about a culture that had the U.S. women win.
Thinking about a development department and a program department, I think you can only look at the Obamas. Regardless of what you think about the Obamas, they are an unbelievable team. They play off of each other's strengths, and they support each other. I don't think anyone would say that President Obama would be able to accomplish what he's been able to accomplish if it wasn't for Michelle Obama.
Sometimes I think in organizations there's this person who gets all the accolades because it's them, but they can't do it without all the assistance of all of the other people that are making this happen.
Culture is really about relationships, and it's about respecting each other, and it's about sharing information and acknowledging the success across the organization, because the development team can't raise the money if the program team isn't rocking it out of the house.
And then just a quick slide that, basically, all of this is necessary. We need it all.
These slides, I'm not going to go through. I just want to bring them to your attention because this is all Edgar Schein work, and he's really seen as somewhat of the guru in the world of organizational culture. I did want to share. If we had more time, I would go through these in detail, but I did want to have them available. And then with them, I took some questions that you might want to be able to bring back to your organization that asks some questions that might help you get to definition of culture, but did want to go through each of these today, because there's just not enough time.
Marc: They're up on the wall, so everybody knows here, you're not missing out. It's up on the wall.
Alison: This is just one of the great examples of culture that I found very apropos for a discussion of nonprofit organizations, and that is that Jack Welch used to meet with all of his presidents and he'd ask what was new or different. If they came up with some great idea, that wasn't what he was looking for. What he was looking for was how they developed information in collaboration with other departments. He was relentless and committed to breaking down silos, and he really wanted to get people to work across boundaries.
There are two phenomena happening right now in the world about boundaries. One is that young people who are coming up into the workforce… Hierarchy, as I grew up with it, because back in the day when I was "40 under 40," which was, now, 10 years ago, it was different. Young people were not expecting to go into these hierarchical siloed environments. I think we're all going to have to make some change. I think culture is going to change. Yesterday, I was listening to a young man say, "We are all philanthropists and we are all entrepreneurs."
Culture is going to be a lot less hierarchical. It's going to be a lot more flat. I find it really interesting when I talk to AmeriCorps members. I love AmeriCorps. I do a ton of training for AmeriCorps. And I ask them how many of them want to be the CEO, and very few hands ever go up. I think if the AmeriCorps members don't want to be the CEO, what's going on here? We don't want all that responsibility. We don't want to have people mad at us.
It really got me thinking about how we even create the structure, and what do we need to do to change that so this next generation feels supported to want to become the CEO?
Again, culture is values driven. I can't say it enough. I did put the Zappos values up here because I thought they were really interesting and a little bit different. Sometimes when people do values exercises, it's like you hire a consultant and the consultant comes in and they do a half an hour with your board, and it's like, "Oh, there we go. We have our values."
I love these values because they're really thoughtful. Create fun and a little weirdness.
Marc: I like that one.
Alison: Be adventurous, creative and open-minded. Pursue growth and learning. At Zappos, they just want everybody to have opportunities for growth. Be honest with communication. Build a positive team. Do more with less. Be passionate and determined. This sounds like great values for half of the nonprofits I know.
Marc: The only one that I actually resonate with for most of the nonprofits I know is Number 8. "You've got to do more with less. This is great. Welcome to the new fiscal year. You have less budget and more goals. Woohoo."
So how, in your experience, have you seen people bake these in, because I can hear people saying, "I would like to work at a place like that too, but you don't understand, we're just running ragged. We're doing more with less. We have more money." It sound like you've got to get off the hamster wheel to do the organizational change. In your experience and in your study, is there a way that you've seen people kind of build the airplane as they're flying it, as far as organizational culture goes, or does it have to be a hard reset?
Alison: No. I think you have to build it as you're flying it, because you can't stop flying the plane. We used to say, "We're gassing plane, flying the plane, and building the plane at the same time."
A couple things that I think are critical, though, to it is it has to start at the board level with the board having this as part of their discussion on a regular basis. This discussion about culture and values is happening at the board level on a regular basis. And maybe the board is asking a question at each meeting that is asking the question, "How are we living this value?" or, "How are we creating that culture?" Invite the staff to have a discussion about that.
I think time away from the office… There's always going to be too much to do. But it's so important to take time away from the office to decompress, to maybe do a little meditation and talk about what's going on, and enjoy each other's company. Because having opportunity for dialogue can create this.
I also think that when the values are clearer, behavior that is completely unacceptable is immediately in doubt. Most people don't become exhausted because they're working too hard. They become exhausted because they're working in a culture that is exhausting them.
Marc: That's excellent.
Alison: This is a whole different study, but I'm certified in something called Emergenetics, which is how people's brains function, and we do a lot of work on Emergenetics with our teams. Some people are extroverts. They can talk and talk. I'm an extrovert. But if I have somebody in my office who just does not love to get into an hour-long discussion about the meaning of something, they're not going to get a ton of energy from that dialogue. They will get some energy from reading a really good report about it, and then putting it into action in a way that's meaningful to them.
So I think part of building our culture is also ensuring that we need to have lots of different types of people to create what we need. It's not creating culture that everybody's the same.
Marc: That's a huge one. I'm glad you saved it. Number 10, be humble, which is how you started the whole thing. There is a humility in the way that you were talking about the other organizations, like serving the community and letting the community teach us how to serve them better. There's an implicit humility in that. That's great.
Alison: Also, I am so proud to be a nonprofit person. I am so proud that this is the work I get to do and this is the career that somehow I was blessed to walk into. It's really hard for me when people say, "Oh, nonprofits don't run like businesses." Take one businessperson that's had to create everything that a nonprofit has to do with the funding models that we put in place for nonprofits, and I'd love to see them do it. I'm really proud of it.
I was looking and thinking, again, doing some research for this presentation, and I found this from Johns Hopkins. I just really liked it as an example of values. I just thought it was really nicely done, so I put it into the slideshow.
This is just very quick, but so much of our culture is these things that we look at every day and don't even pay attention to. What do we see every day? And this is Charity: Water. I just love this. If this were up on my wall every day and I worked at Charity: Water, I'd be excited about going to work because I know what I'm doing by the symbols that are on the wall.
This, just like a Make A Difference symbol, was up on the wall. We had pictures like this everywhere. Because when I'm at my desk writing a grant with a ton of data in it and really getting glassy-eyed, I at least look up at the wall and know this is why we do what we do.
Marc: Ken Burnett gave a storytelling webinar and he talked about Sleeping Beauty's castle in Anaheim and how Walt Disney wanted that built first so that everybody could look at it when they're digging the ditches and doing the conduits and everything to say, "That's why I'm here." That's excellent. That's really good.
Fundraising-wise too, doctors have asked me specifically, "Can you please have our philanthropy staff put donor profiles on the walls? I can't really talk to my patients unless there's something. It gives me a crutch to say, 'Hey, did you see that sign there? Would that be something you'd be interested in doing, too?'" It's not that they don't want to talk to patients about philanthropy, necessarily. It's just they need the environmental crutch to be able to make it more natural.
Alison: That is a great point. When the symbols are on the wall, they open up the door for the philanthropy conversation to happen.
Marc: Absolutely. Surprisingly, donor walls don't always seem to do that.
Alison: I think pictures of donors, pictures of donors with clients, pictures of donors with their family at a project can do it.
So much of how we communicate defines our culture. I love this, "I help people communicate. What's your superpower?" It's that intentionality about how we communicate.
Actually, I think in a board meeting, if I'm joining a board, I really want to know, what is your communication style? How do people interact on this Board? How do people show respect to each other?
This is, again, the respect. I found it funny. My brother actually was sending me a slideshow and he had a picture of somebody flipping somebody off, and I said, "Oh, no, I can't put that in my slideshow." But he did make a valid point. He said, "Sometimes there's just a culture where you don't feel respected at all." And then Rodney Dangerfield, "I don't get any respect."
The greatest symbol is how space is configured. Where do people sit? What do their offices look like? This is actually a really interesting photo on the bottom. I'm actually in Maine right now for the summer, which is great. But I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and this is an organization called Cahoots. If you want to talk about culture, this organization's all about a really great culture. They're starting a nonprofit foundation and they're starting a Cahoots for nonprofits. This is their culture. I love it. I'm thinking, "How cool would it be to work in a nonprofit that had an office like that?"
I loved this. It was pictures of all the thank you notes that this person had.
Does your Executive Director sit in the way back and never come out? I never wanted my office to be in the back of anything. I always wanted my office to be in the center with a door open.
Marc: Yeah, but you're an extrovert, so you like the chaos. That doesn't drain you. That energizes you.
Alison: I didn't want to be in a place where people didn't think they could talk to me. Sometimes you have to have privacy and you have to be able to close the door. Really, is the receptionist not the most important person in the organization? And how do we respect that person with the space that we give them?
Marc: So this is something else about the respect. When I first started in fundraising 20 years ago, I learned if the board's on campus, it was a college, you dress nicer. We respect the fact that they're helping lead the school. I've never gotten over the fact that most organizations don't even know who their board members are, let alone dress nicer.
Not that you shouldn't be two-faced. I'm not saying you should be two-faced. But I love the esteem when the board's on campus, we respect the fact that they said "yes" to being on the board and that they're serving. We're going to drive them from the airport. We're going to go out of our way and you need to be all hands on deck this weekend, and that's just part of what you get by being in the fundraising gig. You're going to be a servant.
I think more nonprofits would be better served if they understood that and told that to their employees going into it. They'd probably find that they'd get better responses from their board, perhaps.
Alison: I think so. I think nothing makes board members more excited than meeting staff. I think when board members are kept from staff . . . I know there's a philosophy about whether or not staff should be in board meetings. People ask this, and I don't think there's an either/or answer. I have a personal preference, which is that I invite staff to be in board meetings unless the board's in Executive Session. How are they going to do their job if they don't know what's going on?
I don't particularly think that staff shouldn't hear the dirty laundry that we're down in budget or that we're having some fundraising challenges. If they don't understand this, how are we actually going to create the culture of philanthropy?
Alison: There are so many philosophies about this and I don't know that one is right or one is wrong. I've always had a pretty open door policy, wanting staff to be in board meetings, wanting the board to really get to know the staff, having dinners together. I did not care if my staff called my board members directly, especially if it was a project that they were working on together. My feeling was if they had something about me they wanted to say, they're going to say it anyway.
I didn't feel that it was at all good for the organization for me to keep my staff from my board. I felt like it was better to keep them all together. I also got good feedback, quite frankly, from board members who may have heard something from a staff member that a staff member may not have told me that helped me see something in a different way.
There are all different ways to do it, and I think if a board is not totally comfortable, that's okay, but maybe you have every third meeting the staff comes and they do a joint meeting. Some way to keep the board and the staff together, because if they don't know each other and they're building those relationships, how are they building the organization?
This ties directly to the issue of money. This is a report. I'm not sure, Marc, if you've read "UnderDeveloped."
Marc: I'm doing a webinar on it in two days for Nonprofit Academy, so this is great.
Alison: Oh, well, it's a perfect segue. I won't spend a lot of time on it.
Marc: If you're listening to this as a recording, it's the "Crisis in Nonprofit Leadership." That's the name of the webinar, and you can get an hour plus on this exactly.
Alison: Yet I remember once having a funder tell me that nonprofit executive directors have the same tenure as racecar drivers and baseball managers and bull riders. And it was this whole thing that nonprofit executive directors don't stay in the job. Well, wow, look at what's happening in why development people aren't staying in the job. I can't help but think that culture is critical to this.
Probably, if I were to make an assumption as to what this is, and I have not read the report in great detail, it's that people see the job of the fundraiser as they're the only people that are supposed to be responsible for philanthropy. That sets that development director up for complete failure.
I don't know what the statistics are or why this is, but I think that everybody has to be involved in philanthropy. Everybody is bringing resources to the organization.
In the matter of time, since we have exactly 13 minutes left, I wanted to end this with just some key things that we actually can do to help build culture. I'm going to skip over this slide because it's not… I'm going to skip a little bit over this slide because you're going to be talking about it, Marc, on your next webinar.
Marc: Tycely talks about a similar way of putting fundraising into everybody's job evaluations in a non-oppressive but culture-enhancing way, so that's great. And that's in the Tycely Williams webinar in the Vault in the Academy.
Alison: This is what's so great about this. So much of what I get, I get from other people.
Marc: I think it's a benefit. I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to have this, because I just think we need to hear this. Nobody is really attacking culture. It's hard to attack culture, so the more that we hear about it in different formats and looking at it from different angles, the more we can see, "Oh, that's how we're going to be able to work this into our organization. Oh, I like the way Alison said that, and this is how it fits."
I'm really glad that some of these things are re-enforcing, because there really isn't a lot new in what we're doing, but we have to keep going back to what we're supposed to be doing so that we can do it well.
Alison: I think if we give people concrete things that they can do, it doesn't seem so daunting or so ethereal. Most importantly, board opportunity, know, live and love the values. If you don't love the values of the organization, maybe it's not the organization for you. Boards, I think, have to start devoting time to the discussion of culture. If they don't, leaders will come into dysfunctional cultures and they won't be able to last. So you may go through a couple of leaders before you get the culture right, but a great leader cannot offset a dysfunctional culture. Our cultures, even when they're good, can always be better.
I also think that we've changed so much. There were very few nonprofits and board members were wealthy people in the community who served on them, so there was this give-get. Now we have so many nonprofits, we have many nonprofits that are under a million dollars, and many that are under $500,000, so we invite boards to come on, and then we invite them and say, "We have to give-get or get off." And I don't think we do enough to train them about cultivation of relationships.
I was talking to my brother, and he was saying he's got these amazing board members that are public defender chiefs. And those board members are exceptional fundraisers, because they can go into a foundation or they can go into the Department of Justice, and they can share their stories about what happens in Kentucky or Tennessee or what happens in the backyard, and what could happen to make that better. They are the salesperson. They just sold it. Maybe their individual gift is less than the partner at the large law firm, but their ability to share, from the field, their experience makes them a very powerful philanthropist.
I just invite us all to think differently about what we ask board members to do as fundraisers. A board member can invite five friends over for a coffee and have as great an effect as trying to sell a thousand dollar table at a gala.
A board member can decide to have their birthday party with all proceeds going to the nonprofit that they love and invite the executive director to come and talk a little bit or invite a client to come. There are all kinds of ways that our board members can be philanthropists without making them feel badly that they're not doing enough. And I think when you have a board member who serves as an ambassador that says, "I love this organization," that is philanthropy.
Then, these, I think are things we just talked about. I invite everybody to write what it means to be a cultural ambassador f or the organization. I think everyone should write what that means. And then every single person in the organization is a cultural ambassador for that organization.
Marc: As a practitioner or yourself, what have you seen works for people that aren't in the position of authority to get the board conversing? Part of what I'm seeing in the field is, increasingly, development directors aren't even invited to the board meeting, which is crazy, because the board members then come in the next day saying, "Oh, yeah, we just kicked off another capital campaign." "You did?"
I think board members need to have development directors in the same room. If you're in that position where you don't get direct access to the board, how do you start influencing people to the board to start having these conversations? Have you found any ways to do that well?
Alison: I think one way is if the staff is putting together their cultural ambassador framework, then they say, "We'd like to share this with the board." I think the board will be really impressed. I think the staff can say, "Hey, we've been thinking a lot about the development plan." Maybe the program team says, "Hey, I think we have some ways we might be able to save some money on doing this, this and this, but it's going to tie directly into development, so could we come to a board meeting to discuss it?" I don't think board members don't want them to be involved. I think sometimes we just don't even think about it.
Marc: Then I'd say, like any good organizer, you stack the deck, so you've already got a friendly in there as a board member to say, "Hey, let's do this ourselves," so that you know going in that there's going to be someone that's already excited about that, and that'll be the outcome. I like that. That's good.
Alison: And then executive responsibilities, again, a lot of this comes right out of that report that you're going to be talking about. This is directly out of that. Which is creating space for education, ensuring that everybody's doing it. I guess I would say the number one thing is if your executive director does not see themselves as a fundraiser, they probably shouldn't be your executive director.
Marc: I'm tweeting that. That's awesome.
Alison: You have to be a fundraiser if you're the executive director.
Marc: In today's blog post, I said that Wesley from "Princess Bride" could easily have said, "Nonprofit life is fundraising, highness. Anything who tells you anything different is selling you something."
Alison: Doesn't that mean that your number one tour? It's the thing you're the best at. Oh my gosh, I've seen so many development directors fail, through no fault of their own, because somehow they got hired to be on this white horse to do something that they can't possibly do without their executive director doing it with them. I actually love fundraising. If I'm passionate about it, it's fun. I don't think that everybody's going to love it, but everybody can find parts of it that they love.
Marc: Like the paycheck. I said that to a conference last week. I said, "How many of you like fundraising?" About six people raised their hand. Then I said, "How many of you like getting a paycheck every week or every other week from your nonprofit?" Everybody's hands went up. I said, "How many people like fundraising now?" "Oh, okay. That's where the revenue comes from? We didn't know." Duh.
Alison: There are so many ways to fundraise that don't feel like fundraising. Then the development team, this is where I think the development team does have a special responsibility, and that is to work in collaboration with the other directors and the CEO. Nothing is more frustrating to a program staff person than to see some grant for a program which they had no input on the budget at all. I can't tell you how many times I've see that, and how really debilitating it is to the program staff.
Sometimes the executive director will say, "Well, that's okay because we're going to get money." But then they can't do what needs to be done, and then you can't report on it properly.
I just think any budget that goes out of an organization has to be done in concert with everyone in the organization that's going to have something to do with that budget. It's respectful. It ensures that we're doing it right. It ensures, in a way, where technology is so much more a part of what we're doing and it's so much easier for funders to ask us for data, that we create that data correctly.
I've seen so many grants go out where the program team says, "I have no idea what this even is or how we're going to do this," or a grant for some whole new program that isn't even part of the strategic plan.
I think the development team's responsibility is to really work in partnership with the rest of the team to commit to continuous learning and to commit to continuous learning for other people in the organization.
Create opportunities for program staff to go on "asks" with them. One, the program staff person can bring so much to the experience, and it helps them understand what the development director is doing. And it's just really a powerful thing to do.
Then I just want to quickly recommend another resource, which is "Boring to Brilliant" by Lori Jacobwith. I didn't even put her name on here properly. So for that, I apologize. I think that this book is a really good way of thinking about how you ask questions to create the stories. Sometimes we say, "Oh my gosh, we need this heartfelt story for our mission moment tour," and people feel like they're being put on the spot to be giving you this story. I think if you ask people questions and create time for those stories to come naturally, it's less intrusive and you'll get really good stories.
Marc: You create a culture of storytelling and sharing, too.
Marc: Which is what we're talking about.
Alison: Again, I think everybody on the program staff should give a contribution to their ability to pay.
I want to talk about a cultural experience that I saw with an organization I work with. This organization is an organization that promotes scholarships to students and basically pays them to go to private school and then go to college. Their program staff, not their development staff, took the lead on the tax credit, the earned income tax credit that you can get in the state of Arizona, and they rallied their families and friends to mark the organization on the tax credit. They took that on. They rallied everybody. They got the people to do it and they raised $60,000 for the organization.
There are a lot of ways that program staff can be philanthropists. I just wanted to share that one example.
Marc: That's so cool.
Alison: Then the volunteers, if I were to say there was any mistake that I made in 12 years at HandsOn Greater Phoenix, it's that I did not ask volunteers for money. I really believe that they were volunteering and therefore we weren't going to ask them for money. What a huge mistake it was. They wanted to give us money. It was five years into the organization's existence before we started an annual campaign to our volunteers. There are all kinds of things that volunteers can do.
Again, we ask people to serve on the board, and I think half these people don't want to govern an organization. They want to get out and organize a food drive. Some of your best people may not be the board members, and you may not want them to be your board members because they can organize a drive for books or supplies, or they can be in charge of their earned income credit. I think that credit is in every state. There's some type of credit that you can get for a nonprofit or a school.
Volunteers, they don't need another thing. They're happy to host the birthday party and have, instead of gifts, items for your organization. Have them invite their friends to come on a tour of your organization. You never know who they're going to invite. But their friends could become philanthropists. They could be volunteers, or they could be somebody who maybe just happens to know how to set up a new website for you.
I think it's always really great to think about how volunteers can be brought up the ladder into philanthropy. They love you already. They want to support you. They're happy to give you money. Ask them for money.
Marc: And the flipside is inviting donors to volunteer. There's the recent study on seven-figure donations, people that give million-dollar gifts and above shows that women have a tendency. . . Women that give a million dollars or above in gifts, not just cumulative, but as gifts, are more highly likely to want to be volunteering in the nonprofit. They want to be passing out the sandwiches or conserving the land or working with the pets or whatever. It's so counterintuitive, because we usually try to keep restricting people the higher they give.
The good news is, Alison, as you know, millennials want to volunteer also. And X-ers do volunteer if it seems like it's going to help, but millennials have a different culture of volunteering. You've got the younger donors, the up-and-coming donors, and then you've got the million-dollar donors that are both wanting to have these volunteer opportunities. That's just brilliant on so many levels, this slide. This is so helpful.
Alison: I think with that, just to reiterate a couple of key things, really taking that time for onboarding. I don't think we spend nearly enough time onboarding people, and then we don't set them up for success because they've not had enough time to be oriented into our organization.
Share stories. Write stories. There's this really cool app called StoryCorps that you can download onto your phone, and you can have somebody just give you a story right on the app. I think that there are all kinds of ways to get stories about your organization.
Giving people opportunities to acknowledge each other every staff meeting, having some opportunity where somebody can acknowledge someone else, or give snaps or give a red balloon or do something. Often, I think our staff meetings are all about what we need to get done, but there's so much that we want to celebrate and honor.
Invite the development staff to volunteer and to meet with the clients in the communities. Host the monthly or quarterly mission moment tours. That's taken pretty much out of the Benevon model, but I think it's such an interesting thing to do. People want to come to your organization, and what a great way to have a Board member and a couple of staff members create that tour and showcase the great work that you do in the community.
Marc: Quickly, on reinforcing culture, and hopefully this is something that other people can use too. I was pastoring a church in rural Maine. I had people that were always telling me that my assistant pastor… We only had 20 or 30 people, so didn't need another pastor that way. One day, I cleaned the toilet. I shoveled the snow off the walkway. I did the sermon and then cleaned the toilet, because someone was really explosive and it went everywhere. And I thought as I was cleaning the toilet, "I don't need another assistant pastor. I need toilet bowl cleaners."
I went out to Wal-Mart and I got the cheapest toilet bowl scrub brushes I could find, and I got stickers of the church logo and put stickers on them, and those became my servant leader awards. Whenever I saw somebody doing exceptional over and above service, I would have a toilet bowl scrubber at the pulpit. It was a converted convenience store, but what I loved about it was people got curious, "What's Pitman doing now? This is bizarre? Why is there a toilet bowl brush? Did somebody forget it? Why is that there?"
Then I would get to tell the story that I just shared about and reinforced that we're not a leisure cruise. We're not a cruise ship. We're a working vessel. Everybody gets to play. I would be able to reinforce our congregational culture that we were instilling, and share something in a quirky weird way, going back to the Zappos slide, that also gets people… There are only a few. It's a small congregation. I had to just pick and choose the exceptional acts of service.
But the crazy thing about this culture stuff that you're talking about, Alison, is that there was a kid and a teenager who was in a car accident. The car was totaled. He was taken to the hospital in an emergency vehicle. When he finally came to, his dad was talking to him and said, "Your car is totaled." He said, "Did you get anything out of it?" And he said, "There wasn't anything to get out of it." He said, "Dad, did you get the toilet bowl brush?" I still tear up at this. It was the first time he'd ever been recognized for service.
Something I thought was quirky and silly that was reinforcing culture is something… We have that power in nonprofits. We have the power in for-profits, too, but we have an interesting opportunity with our cultures, with our staff and boards to recognize people for the right reasons.
It's great. I think this was really powerful. Thank you for sharing this. Where's your phone number? Is it on here?
Alison: I will give it to you. It is 602-525-8682.
Marc: Alison's generously offered for a 30-minute coaching session, if you've listened to this webinar, if you made it all the way to the end. Or not, because you said it earlier too, so good for you.
Alison: I'd be happy to do it. It just happens that I'm in Maine for the summer, so I have a little bit of time. This helps me think about this. I'm obviously passionate about it, and all of your questions and spending time with you helps me do this better. My website is AlisonRapping.com. It's a new website, so it's not yet really content rich, but if you keep going back to it in the next few months, you'll see more and more content coming onto the new site.
Marc: Alison, thank you so much. We're going wrap, because this has been so content rich itself. The slides are already on the page. The recording will be going there as soon as it's converted.
If you're looking for something to share with your board from this, I'd recommend going right at that one-hour moment and just when she starts going to slides of how the board can do this, how the leaders can do this, how the development staff can do this, how the program staff can do this, how volunteers can do this, that could be a part that you could share at different meetings. Then they'll have them as a way of getting them to listen to the whole session.
Thank you, everyone. Be watching your emails for the reminders of the upcoming webinars. Be watching the dashboard. Remember that, between webinars and the coaching call that's coming up in a couple weeks, we can always answer questions and keep the conversation going in the forum on Facebook.
Until then, this has been another edition of the NPA Presents. Have a great afternoon.