Conversion optimization is still a new frontier for many nonprofits. It can be perceived as complex, expensive and time-consuming -- but it doesn’t need to be that way.

Optimizing your website is the most effective way to increase donor support. And attracting more site visitors, email subscribers and social media fans, and ultimately donors, is what this powerful webinar is all about. You’ll learn practical steps you can apply to your website and see real examples of what’s working now.

This new session will not only demystify optimization, but also help you develop a plan and ideas that you can put into practice with your website (even with limited resources).

Webinar attendees will:

  • Gain an understanding of conversion optimization beyond the hype
  • Learn how small changes to site content and design can make a huge impact, and
  • Create a site optimization plan that will increase donor engagement and support.

Additional materials for Website Optimization: How to Convert More Prospects to Donors Online

Download the audio here: Website Optimization: How to Convert More Prospects to Donors Online (MP3)

Download the slides here: Website Optimization Tips for Nonprofits by Hunter Boyle (PDF)

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Transcript for Website Optimization: How to Convert More Prospects to Donors Online

MARC PITMAN: Welcome to the NPA Presents webinar with Hunter Boyle. I am Marc Pitman, your host. As you may remember, your GoToWebinar panel has a “Chat” and “Questions” feature. If you have any need to get in touch with us during the training, please feel free to ask questions. I’ve got the chat open, but I’ll try to remember to check questions as well.
This is a time for you to really be thinking about how your website what can help your website become what your nonprofit needs it to be, so please use those features and I am so excited I want a shorten my introduction on the comments are also feel free to use the hashtag that you see on the screen “NPA Presents” because that hash tag will also, I will be monitoring that and if you questions with that I'll be looking for those too. But I want to turn this over to Hunter. Hunter Boyle is a rock star in my universe when it comes, and probably a lot of others, but I know at least mine so it may be a small universe, but Hunter knows web stuff. He knows social media. He knows website optimization. He knows how to effectively get a message out and get people to take action on that. He has been doing this since the late ‘90’s. Just before I started my first blog. I started blogging in 1999 but he jumped in around ‘97, ‘98 and he’s worked with a lot of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations. For us, here with the Nonprofit Academy, it's kind interesting to me that he's worked with groups like the Smithsonian Institution; he's done a lot of their web copy. He’s worked with Robert Wood Johnson; he’s also worked with smaller nonprofits, St. Augustine festival in Art Blog, I think you can see on there. He gets this. He gets what we're trying to do as nonprofits and he gets how to help how we can make it ridiculously easy for people to do what they likely are wanting to do on our sites and we just got it unintentionally put up all sorts of road blocks. So, Hunter I am thoroughly excited, oh, you can check him out at, sign up for his announcements as he rolls this out. He is starting a whole new adventure with Optimization Copilot and actually moving to another hemisphere, right?
HUNTER BOYLE: That's right, going to Australia.
MARC PITMAN: Woo-hoo, so you’ll be going down under, and before I start singing Men at Work, I'll just turn it over to you Hunter. We're glad to have you here. Thank you so much take it away.
HUNTER BOYLE: Marc, thank you for a great introduction. It's a real pleasure to be doing this with you. You know, we were talking earlier about how we met at Franklin Forum a couple years ago and I'm really glad that this is come together. As you know and I think as you mentioned in the intro, working with nonprofits is been something that’s been pretty special to me since 1998. I used to be the editor of a newsletter called Grants for Cities and Towns Biweekly, which is all about funding, worked on several Nonprofit newsletters for a publisher, and that was the same time I got into web design and over the years, like you said, I’ve worked with large institutions like University of Pennsylvania from $3.5 billion capital campaigns to a small start-up, the San Augustine Music Festival, just getting their first website off the ground, things like that. So these are things we are going to talk about today when it comes to optimization that you hear a lot about and many companies are doing it, especially sort of the cutting-edge software companies, startups, and organizations that really get digital marketing from a, you know, from a technological perspective. What I'm hoping to do and my real objective here today is to help your audience get just that very distilled version and really kind of understand the process so without having to become an expert in that type of thing just knowing, let’s say, enough to be dangerous maybe and then using that to kind of work with any type of team that you have, it's if it's an individual developer, designer, what have you, but just having this understanding, I think, will really help with getting towards the goals that your nonprofit has for its site which, by and large, usually tends to be donations and support. There are some other goals as well, but that's what we’re really going to focus on here today and let’s just dive right into it. Of course, with just about any organization, whether it’s a company, certainly, but nonprofits in particular, the universal desire here is how we going to increase donations and how can do that without increasing time and budget or resources that are pretty slim. We know that those types of things don't come very easily when organizations are really looking to run lean and get the most out of the donations and what they’re doing in their charity navigator scores so what I consider not the greatest news, but if we think about it from that perspective if we try and get all of those great gains without investing some time and budget, we’re kind of setting ourselves up for disappointment so this is a picture of Time, the Unicorn and Budget, the Rainbow and this is where I think a lot of nonprofits and even for-profit companies in general can run themselves into a little bit of a rut thinking that they need to do a little bit of everything or a lot of everything and they just get so overwhelmed that they don't know exactly where to start so this is really about getting through that process and working on an action plan and we’ll develop that shortly but in the meantime the real, kind of, change in mindset that I think is best to keep important is what I call sort of the next best thing. If we can’t get the unicorn and we can’t get the rainbow. What we need to do is really make sure that we understand our audience and put them first as it applies to our websites and to our online initiatives and one of the great advantages that nonprofits have over a lot of companies is a really solid understanding of their audiences, the stakeholders, their donors, their board members, their volunteers, their recipients. Those types of relationships tend to be stronger in nonprofit environments than they are in corporate environments, so it's really about taking that advantage and using that digitally to make the most of how we connect with those different audiences and those stakeholders. So for that reason, I’ve put together this kind of outline for how I think we can help as many of you as possible get through some of these trickier bits that you might not be super familiar with and use them to really optimize what you doing with your nonprofit website and some of your channels, like email, social, etc. and the first bit is just to demystify what it really is and what is means when we talk about Conversion Optimization. There's a number of definitions kind of floating around out there if you Google it, you’ll see a few that are pretty good but the process itself I want to make sure you have a really good handle on. And then as we get into three steps that we can really apply using goals, test areas, and elements as a plan of attack to really get into how we do this on our own or how we work with our teams to do this and I'll be kind of supporting those with a few real ideas, examples, and some resources. There’s a great case study here that I think you’re going to love if you're in a position where you need to get buy-in for these types of initiatives, these kinds of numbers and examples will really help with that and then the last part is actually creating your own action plan. And we’ll go through the steps here and Marc, I think you'll be making the presentation a PDF format available for folks as well, right?

MARC PITMAN: Correct, it will be on the page right in the vault, so they’ll have the checklist there. That’s wonderful.

HUNTER BOYLE: Great, so everybody who’s on the call here today or listening to the recording later, you can use those same slides to help build your own action plan and really put some of these ideas into practice. So I just want to remind everyone real quickly as well, that Marc has volunteered to keep an eye on some of the questions. If any questions come in during the session, I’ll do my best to try and answer them and see how we press through, there’s a lot to get through, but if we have a little bit of time at the end to answer some, that would be great. So feel free to use the questions formats in your GoToWebinar and if any of those come up along the way, let’s see how we can address them and I'll ask once or twice how I am doing on pacing and make sure that I'm not getting too crazy with any of this stuff here. So let’s see.

So this slide here I like to call Optimization Demystified. As Marc mentioned, I've been doing this for a while. There was an organization that I was with called Marketing Experiments in Florida and the big tan box on the left with the algebraic equations or the heuristics, as we used to call them, is the format for how we used to teach optimization and the principles to a workshop for a lot of marketers and digital marketers that lasted about eight hours. So that was a full-day certification-based workshop and, as you can see there, it can make your brain explode. I know my own brain had a couple of run-ins with it sometimes and over the years, I've sort of looked for ways to present this type of information in a very easy-to-understand way so that you don't have to (a) either spend 8 hours to do it or (b) really dig so deeply into the scientific elements but to just get a good sense for what it is we’re talking about when we look at websites and landing pages and email and other digital channels and how we would change them and what we mean with optimization, so that image on the right is by my friend Chris Gower of Wider Funnel. He’s done a little bit more palatable version, I think, for a lot of people. It’s a cute graphic. The Value Proposition is the thrust, Urgency is kind of pushing the overall process along, Relevance and Clarity, you’ll see that those are in both sides of this slide and Anxiety and Distraction, this is really about how you navigate through websites, emails, and digital properties. So if you kind of take a minute to separate yourself from the formula on the left and even the graphic on the right and you think about your own journeys when you're searching for information online and you think about the processes that you have to go through whether it's finding something in a search engine first and then getting to a website and then getting from that first destination page, whether it’s a landing page or a homepage, to the information that you're looking for, how many steps are involved in the process, how many sub-steps are involved in there, that’s where Friction really comes in, the Urgency of your decision, the Intent and the User Experience. So all of these different factors are kind of different components of conversion rate optimization and like I said, it can take a very long time to get into the finite understanding of these types of things. So, don't worry about that. Just let me handle that part and we’ll just kind of go with some of the distilled aspects that we’ll be looking at next.

So my version of a definition of Conversion Rate Optimization or CRO for nonprofits is a little bit different than what we see for the corporate version and I like to think about this as improving the value exchange process with our stakeholders. So, whether that's a donation, whether it’s volunteers, board members, press coverage, whatever aspects you're trying to achieve with your website. Some nonprofits that do events, whether its fundraisers campaigns, whatever it is, that’s your Intended Action and your users, your stakeholders are a variety of people as well: donors, supporters, fans, you know, press, and how we can make sure that the different aspects of our site connect properly and as efficiently and as effectively as possible with the intended audiences is what we're after and we're going to go through a quite a bit, as I mentioned, in the course of just under an hour now but having this background is going to be so important for you to take away after the session and apply to your own sites, your own emails and
social channels. I can guarantee you that after we're done here today you will be looking at your site and your channels in a slightly different way and my hope is that that will certainly help in a lot of ways to increase donations, online support sustainers, and all these other goals that you may have. So that's the Demystification version of the session here today. Hopefully you have a good sense of what we're trying do here and how you can apply it, so let's jump right into how we can apply that and what that actually looks like.

I have three steps that I want to have our folks on the call here kind of work on, not necessarily right here on the call, but as part of that action planning. This is just helping you to see how you can visualize this and how you can implement this with your own sites and your own process so the first step with optimization is you really need to prioritize our goals and this is something that Marc and I were talking about before the call. One of the trickiest things for, and it’s not just nonprofits again. This is also a situation that happens with corporations quite frequently is trying to achieve so many different things at once, trying to serve so many different purposes and we see this with homepages all the time. You know a homepage may have 5, 6, 7 different Calls to Action, different aspects that you can go to and it rarely reflects sort of the mindset when we're developing a website for an organization. This is one of the reasons landing pages are so valuable they’re a lot more focused and landing pages make it very easy for it, when they are done properly, for the visitors to understand what action they should be taking and how to do it. So when we think about prioritizing our goals, here's where we have to look at all the different things as a nonprofit organization we’re trying to achieve many times at once or many times overlap so let's say at the top of the list would be major gifts, capital campaigns, requests, those type of pillar support vehicles. Another one would be lower level donations instead of the $3.5 billion campaign or million dollar campaign, donations on an ongoing basis: sales, ads, events, things like that, whether its fundraisers, whether it’s other types of income or revenue for the organization. And you’ll see that in the parentheses here I use just a kind of device to help keep an eye on the level of priority for these so four dollar signs plus major gifts. Three for donations, two for sales and ads. As we go down the list we get to email opt-ins, downloads, volunteering and information requests, blog comments and social media interactions so these are just a broad way.
MARC PITMAN: That’s really interesting that your social media is decimal point because I could totally see people if you go a lot of sites it seems like Twitter and Facebook are getting more ad space then donations or anything else on the nonprofit sites.

HUNTER BOYLE: You know, and you’re right and that's that's something that you could consider it to be something that's changing but I still remember a couple years ago the marketing director for Fill Abundance, one of the largest organizations in this area dealing with food and hunger prevention. She had a great presentation and talked about how email was their primary vehicle for donations and that as great of a social media audience as they had and the interaction there, it just did not do anything for donations. That as far as a donation channel, email was the lifeblood and I’ve been talking about that for a while formerly with an email company but instead of it being self-serving way it was actually very much based on those same types of reports and those antidotes from many, many other organizations. Social media is great for kind of building an audience in a lot of ways but the trick is that a lot of organizations have seen this as well with Facebook and changing the algorithms and how Liked Pages do and let’s say now do not appear in the newsfeeds in an organic way, whereas the great benefit of email and it’s one thing that my friend Brian Clark, of Copy Blogger, talks about all the time, is that the email list is the real estate that you own and your Twitter feed, your Facebook channel, your YouTube, those are all great vehicles but when it comes right down to it, when Facebook changes its algorithm and now you can't get in touch with all the fans who‘ve liked your page and wanted that information, without paying extra for it or Twitter changes something in its algorithm, or you know YouTube does the same. Google Plus, we've just seen, is going through a major, I don't know, that thing has had growing pains from beginning, but now it's becoming something else. So, as those vehicles change, your email service is actually one that stays the same. You own the list, you can control it. Yes, there are deliverability things and Google can change where things show up in Gmail but email is a super important and highly valuable channel, particularly for nonprofits, when it comes to awareness for fundraising, for campaigns, and those sorts of things so that will always be in my mind higher than social media as long as that kind of framework exists the way that it does. But it's a great point and I’m glad you brought it up One of the things that we’ll probably not get too deep into, I have one example or two but the idea of really focusing on how to use email more effectively is one that has always been one of my top recommendations for all the nonprofit clients that I have. So that's why that one comes right under the sales and ads and events.

So prioritizing your goals is really thinking about if you’re in the marketing seat for a nonprofit or you’re in the development seat, you kind of know some of these numbers but really putting than on paper in this way and setting them up this way will really help you see, hey if we've been spending five hours a week on our social media channel but only one hour a week on email or, you know, two hours a month on a monthly newsletter, we really could do some things a little bit differently as far as how we allocate our time and budget and those types of things. So this is this is kind of the outline for helping to get your goals prioritized and the thing to keep in mind with that as I mentioned at the beginning as Marc and I were talking about, just pick three. There were seven in that list and they are all valuable to a certain extent but you know in some aspects some will change, like donations if it’s number two minus major gifts might become your number one as you head to your annual fundraiser or a particular event so they can change and they can overlap. But since you're only gonna have so much
bandwidth at any given time, make sure that you take the three most important ones and you do whatever you need to to prioritize those and put those at the top of your list for what’s in front of you right now.

And then that brings us to step number two, which is a similar step: prioritizing your test areas. So now you know what your goals are if your first goal right now is donations for an upcoming event and the events or the fundraiser part of that event is secondary then you have two of your top three goals and now you can move on to which areas of your site you can test to make the most of those goals being at the top of your list. So when we look at areas that we can prioritize, we use a similar, kind of it’s not really a matrix, but kind of a trick to balance out which one of those will rise to the top. So the potential as far as where your top exit pages are. If you have a lot of traffic on your site at a very important page like the donations page, for example, that's going to have high impact, that is a big priority but a lot of people are exiting without donating and that is going to be one of the, if not the first area, that you focus on. And a corollary to that is importance. So some of your entry pages. So let's say that not everyone comes into your site at the donation page. Maybe it comes to you from the homepage or from ‘about us’ or something like that or if you happened to be using paid traffic if you’re doing. By the way, I would love to know how many folks on the call have been taking advantage of the Google ad words for nonprofits because I still run into nonprofits who aren’t familiar with that program but hopefully everybody here knows that if you apply for Google grants as a 501(c)(3), they can donate a significant amount of money for you to use as a grant for using ad words to drive traffic to your site. So if you haven't done a lot with pay per click, which you’ve been seeing here or ad words that is a venue that can help you get started with that. And then SEO, I mentioned what you have for organic traffic and we’ll look at an example of that later on but your most important entry pages are also going to be another part of that area so where people coming in and where they are coming out with the biggest impact and the biggest potential impact and then that third x factor is eats what is it that your team can actually handle? Right? If you can’t redesign your entire website, which is a huge endeavor for just about any type of organization a lot of the action plans that I do for nonprofits break down these types of priorities into bite-size chunks, let's call it, so making changes a couple of key changes to a couple of key pages is a lot better than trying to figure out everything and embark on an entirely new website redesign. That takes a lot of budget that takes a lot of time and if you can’t do that these are the kinds of interim and low-effort, high-impact changes that we’re going to try to focus on.

MARC PITMAN: And ultimately nobody really cares about a website redesign except the people that redesigned it. That’s one of the most pointless emails from a nonprofit to send out, “hey we just redesigned our website.” The donors are thinking, “So what? I want to feed people, I want to spay more animals, or I want to do something with my money, so what? Sorry.

HUNTER BOYLE: That is such a good point. No, you’re right.

MARC PITMAN: Little pet peeve of mine.

HUNTER BOYLE: I'm glad you brought that up. We’re going to talk about that in a little bit as well. Actually in step Three I’m going to jump on to that in a minute. But, so when we think about these test areas that we can really look to on our site rather than necessarily redesigning the entire thing or trying to go in six different directions and you know we know what Design by Committee looks like and outside agency designs and those sorts of things get very cumbersome so what are the immediate changes that you can make that will really have an impact? Homepage is usually one of the number one areas and as I mentioned before, if you have five or six different potential paths for people to get to from your homepage. A lot of it will require digging into analytics and talking to your users and getting some sense of user experience, but that method and that project can pay such huge dividends. We’ll see one of those in a case study later that I think you’re going to love and then figuring out just what your top three site pages are. After the Homepage, usually it tends to be Homepage is number one, About Us or Our Mission page for nonprofit is often number two, sometimes the Donation pages are in the top three and hopefully if those are, then you have a really good head start. It can be Events Calendar, if you’re doing something like that, Contact Us, whatever it is for your top three for your own site. Just figuring out what those are will give you a very, let's say, simple place to start rather than trying to work through the whole site. I have been brainstorming meetings where you know we talk about redesigning and optimizing a page and those things can get very tricky. They can drag on and can go for 45 minutes through a bunch of different ideas and you know at the end of it, you’ve got a ton of ideas but the honest truth is only two or three, maybe four of them, are going to be really valuable and might really work so the brainstorming process and the feature-creep process or the meeting-creep as some of those can kind of happen, this action plan that we are going to get into is designed to give you a head start on that so that you don't wind up in these kind of soul draining, Design by Committee meetings sometimes that you know wind up with a lot of ideas but not a lot of traction.

You’ve heard me talk already about how important email is and getting people to opt in on the down low because the biggest benefit of email is nothing is going to drive traffic back to your site better than what you do with your email. It’s not social media. You can’t count on organic search engine results to do that. You can’t count on paid search to do that. None of that will do as well as maintaining and growing your site traffic levels and building those relationships with email. So getting people to sign up for email and receive that is another huge area and then social media options that we have talked about that on there the less of a priority for me but they are certainly valuable because that is the way a lot of people get their news. And the more that you can do to cross- pollinate your social and your email to get people on to 2 to 3 different feeds if people getting your emails as well as following you on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Pinterest, whatever else you're doing, that's the best thing you can hope for. Those are your superfans, so having that information is very valuable when it comes to evangelists and donations, ambassadors and those types of things. So, when I prioritize the different areas of a site that I would look to make changes or tests with this is how it goes but again those top three site pages, your mileage may vary. But we’ll look at those and we‘ll talk a little bit about analytics and how to use those. The take away again: you don't need to do the entire site at one time. You know Rome wasn’t built in a day as they say and trying to redo the entire website in one day is ridiculous. But in one day you can in fact really come up with some great, high impact, potential changes
or tests for these key aspects of your site. And wouldn’t you much rather do that like produce a test or a change on a donation page or a homepage that gets a significant gain and you didn't have to go through the process of doing the other 10 - 15 pages?

MARC PITMAN: And I love your action plan here because also if you go through an entire redesign and you choose the wrong page, and choose a page that nobody’s going to because you haven’t looked at any analytics or anything, that could be, just what a wasted effort.

HUNTER BOYLE: Exactly, exactly. You’re spending time on you know 4 or 5 pages that get very little traffic that don’t have a Call to Action, making these changes and that impact and actionability, is going to be a super super important part and that takes right to Step 3 which is optimizing your key elements.

So we have a sense of our goals and we have a sense of our test areas, the pages that we really want to make our changes and run our tests with and we’ll talk about the difference between changes and testing when we look at some examples. But as we get into optimizing the key elements, what we are really talking about are the things that people see and encounter when they get to our sites. So you remember from the plane graphic and the algebraic equation heuristic, the Value Proposition was one of the most important pieces. And this is something that can get a little bit tricky with nonprofits. It can be confused for a tagline. It can be confused with a mission statement but we mean when we say Value Proposition is what I was talking about with the value exchange: why I should care about (a) your organization and (b) the spot that I'm at right now on your page, on your site, in your email. What is it that I'm getting from this particular interaction and it's kind of, to put it bluntly, it’s why should I care? It’s that ‘what's in it for me?’ concept which as humans we all have selfishly and you know with our limited time and attention span these days making sure the Value Proposition is absolutely clear, crystal-clear and is intuitive for people is one of the biggest things that you can do for your site, your email, your digital channels, everything. Calls to Action is the other really key component because once I know why I care and what I should be doing, I need to have a really very clear sense of how to do it and why I should do it right now. That was the little Urgency fire at that back of the plane, right? So using calls to action that are really even more clear than you might think you need to be. Not dumbing it down necessarily, but just giving people the benefit of the doubt that making it as actionable as possible is one of the things you have to take into consideration for your Calls of Action as well as making them very very visible. Typically in the longer format workshops that I do at these, I use some examples of what not to do or pages that are doing something ‘wrong’ is a strong word but not nearly to their potential. Sometimes I get a little worse than that and beat up some pages there but in the meantime using Calls to Actions is one of the biggest things that you can do and making sure that they’re visible, they’re intuitive, and they’re compelling is absolutely paramount. So where do you use your Calls of Actions and most the time they will be a couple key areas. Forms and Sign-Ups again whether it’s a Contact Us or signing up for email list or forms for donating, donation pages themselves if they have two or three steps involved making sure that the Call to Action carries through if it’s a two or three page process and then the Follow Up/Confirmation page and then these other types of interaction points like how we can learn about you know, an event that's coming up whether it’s a fundraiser or whether it’s a community event or those types of things. How to connect with your organization on Facebook or social channels, other types of interaction points, those Calls to Actions are super important.

In the emails themselves whether you are creating an email series which hopefully some of you might be using, I’d love to find out how many folks on the call actually have a welcome email series so in addition to someone signing up to receive your emails, they are either getting an initial welcome email that points them back to the site or gives them a useful resource. Like I know that Marc uses on his site a free e-book, that once you sign up for email, you get that delivered. Turning that into something that is even 2, 3, 5 different emails to kind of help walk people through using your site or doing other kinds of conversion goals is something that can really help build a relationship while the iron is hot, if I can mix metaphors there for a minute.

MARC PITMAN: Well if you are, just type in the chat “yes” as Hunter keeps going, but that would be really interested to see how many people are doing that or how many of us.

HUNTER BOYLE: And then whether you are using emails for just updates, whether it’s a newsletter format, or campaign updates, special offers, those types of things. These are going be the areas where, again, you're connecting with your audience. You’re asking them to take action. These are the things that you want to put the top of the list for testing changes. And then social and all site channels again I know some of you feel like I'm beating up on social media for this one by putting them in the line each time and it's not really the case. I just know that when comes to impact, social media gets an awful lot of the attention, but when it really comes to the value of the time invested or the testing of those sorts of things, you’re going to see a lot bigger return on your email and I know that social media is easier for a lot of people to use. Using Facebook and Twitter can be a little bit faster and simpler than designing an email or keeping track on email analytics and setting up an autoresponder series but you get back with you put into it so

MARC PITMAN: But Hunter, I just started my crowdfunding website and nobody's coming. I tweeted it, why aren’t they coming to my crowdfunding? I get that almost every week. Well, how big is your email list? What are you doing to grow email customers to help them know? Or e-mail sign-ups that they know there's a crowdfunding site.

HUNTER BOYLE: You know what? That’s such a great point and if you think about that as an analogy, think about what is really driving those sites, right? When you think about Indigo-go or you know, you name it, another type of crowdfunder site. They're mostly driven by email. They get people to donate you know, the confirmation all that, email is such a key part of that. That is absolutely one that needs to be considered as a top priority.

So now moving on really quickly to what to test and change. You know we talked a little bit about Value Proposition and the what’s in it for me concept so this really comes across most in copy and it's not necessarily a copy overhaul that a lot of sites need but really just even changing some of the formatting from, you know, what I call sort of the Three Little Pigs and a lot of the ‘we we we’ copy to more of the you-focused copy and really putting the reader first and thinking about the ‘what’ versus the ‘how’ and the ‘benefits’ versus the ‘features’. So, for example, a lot of email sign-ups will say,”Sign up and get our weekly email delivered to your inbox with special deals and offers” or something like that. It's very common, but you’re telling me the ‘how’ and the ‘what’ rather than why I should care, so take that concept a step further. What am I going to be able to do with what I get from that email? It's nice that your telling me and you’re setting expectations for the weekly vehicle, but it's not as sexy. It's not as compelling as something that I can really look forward to with that email and not even just an update because an update is pretty, I mean, you know, let's be honest, there’s nothing super compelling about getting more email updates, right? Prizes can be a little bit of a misnomer because they get people excited about something that's different to the core mission but really thinking about how you can frame the benefits and what people are going to be able to get and do with, let's say, email for example, or using a page or making a donation and that can really change the copy and the language. Setting expectations is another part of that process where people understand how many steps are involved before they start so if it's just a very quick donation form that you can do all on one page, great. If it's going to be like a two or three step form, I’ve seen some of those in Salesforce for Nonprofits and Blackboard and some of the other kinds of vehicles that you know use like clunky forms, helping people understand that this isn't going to be as trying of a process as you might think and hopefully making it one that’s not. The types of incentives and motivations whether that's, you know again, whether it's a crowdfunding or campaign where you kind of see the givebacks or the gifts, you know the incentives for donating, the motivation is there, why it’s different, what you get from being a sustainer versus a one-time donation, those types of things. And then most importantly, and this again is a whole other session unto itself, the idea of making sure your pages are mobile friendly particularly with the changes that Google is going to be rolling out in about two weeks or so where a large change to their algorithm will be emphasizing obviously mobile friendly pages for mobile searches and trying to sort things in different ways. It hasn't launched yet but the way I kind of think about it is, it's already, you know, Spring 2015. If your site doesn't have, at least if the entire site isn’t mobile friendly yet, you need to at least have a couple mobile friendly landing pages in the interim to make sure that those key pages are doing what they need to do for people on the platform because it's now the majority, I mean, it’s over 60% and it's growing and a lot of that traffic is going to be very related to, you know, immediate type of search requests and search intent. So, that's super important but again you can only get so much into that because that would be, that's sort of a whole course in of itself. But just keeping an eye on the mobile friendliness of your pages. And that's all visible in analytics as well. You can kind of get into Google analytics without being a pro and just sort by mobile and see your analytics on that as a great way to start. That will at least get you started on how and the scope on what your need is in that area. So the takeaway tip here: Ensure that your elements are clear, intuitive and most of all actionable. People don’t come to your site to sit around. They don’t come to just read and read and keep reading. They’re there for an action. They’re there for an intent. You need to make sure that your site is presenting that very clearly and guiding them along to not just the action that you want them to take but the action that fits what do they’re there for and fits their motivation.

MARC PITMAN: So let me ask you this. I know that it's getting late in the hour which I'm just taking tons of notes because I want to apply this to my own site. But what about, the when you said ‘what's in it for me?” you know, the Value Proposition. I think many of us try put up our sites saying our nonprofits mission and there could be more than one audience. There could be the clients that are coming, there could be the people that might use the services, it could be the volunteers but it seems like if you're trying to drive donations you need to have the proposition be to the donors so how do you, any tips on balancing the Value Proposition?

HUNTER BOYLE: You know what, Marc I love what you did there. And I love that I know you didn’t preview these, but you just actually set up the next screen. It’s absolutely perfect. So I’m going to answer your question. How do you like that?

MARC PITMAN: Awesome, great.

HUNTER BOYLE: So we are I know I am probably running a little bit long on the foundation part will so I'll go a little bit more quickly through some of these ideas. And again, the idea for showing these examples is not so that you can copy them verbatim but it's just to really give you a sense of what we’re talking about how it looks in action and what that can mean to your site results and this is why it's so important. So this is a test that the Russ Read agency had run for the International Federation of Wildlife and this is the Donate page on the website. This is the control version, so this is the page as it looked before they ran the test and this is what the test version looked like. Now, if you notice Version A on the left, the control, and Version B, the test on the right, they look very very similar in most respects. If you look at the address form below there and you look at the upper right-hand box to little cute little Tiger. Those are very, those are exactly same the Donate section. Down at the bottom right on both is exactly saying. What they changed on this was moving that section in the left with payment method where it went from credit card, making an automatic payment, or a single payment or PayPal, making a single payment, and you know the orange background. But they took the payment method from that left-hand side and they moved that over to another spot where it wouldn't be as confusing or cause quite as much friction, which was the problem. A lot of people were getting stuck at that early part of the form right? It was just too much too soon, let's call it that way. So and that was the hypothesis that they used when running this test. So, the changes they made from Version A was moving that payment method choice under, you can see it under Payment Details, now in Version B where it says ‘Donate using credit card’ or ‘Donate using PayPal’ so they simplified it and they moved it to a stage further down in the process and by doing that and making that change on that page they increased the conversion rate by 33%. So what that means is that Version B, with those small changes, got 33% more donations from people who visited that page. Think of how significant that is even if the minimum donation here amount is $25, you know there is 25, 50, 100, Other. But think about what that type of increase would be. A 33% increase in your donation page just by moving those two page elements from one section to the other. It’s not redesigning the entire site. It's not even it's not even making a huge design overhaul to the page itself. It’s changing a couple of elements and putting those into the thought process more intuitively for the users and helping reduce the friction and make this process smoother. And that's how optimization can work. I'm not going to guarantee you that if you kind of move pieces around the board on the page that you're going to get that type of increase. Again, this is for illustrative purposes and your mileage may vary but this is why we have an entire industry devoted to Conversion Optimization and working on these types of changes to really get those kinds of results.

And as a corollary to that, there was a secondary test that they ran with the same website and this part speaks directly what Marc was just asking about. This is a shot of their homepage. And as you can see, there is a widget there, the orange box on the right with the little cut out arrow that says ‘Donate Now’. That is a widget that led to the Donation page that we just saw. So this was after they did the first test and increased the donations on the Donation page or they increased the conversion rate they made that test the new control. Then they went back to one of the key traffic driver pages the homepage and they tried to increase the amount of traffic that went through this widget. So that's the first version the initial version of the control of that widget and this is a shot, these pages are overlapped so I just stacked them basically the rest of the homepage all looks exactly the same so that same box, ‘Take Action’, only the photo changes there and those other elements. But, you'll see now that that Donate widget looks very different and this is exactly what we mean by ‘what's in it for me?’ and a Call to Action clarity of language. Think about the difference between having ‘Donate Now’ and a pulldown with a dollar sign as a headline and as a button and it says, “Our work depends on your generous support. Please give what you can to help the animals”, right? It starts with ‘Our’, right. It starts with ‘Donate Now’. There's the ask right up front and I know Marc likes to ask without fear and I believe in that too but if you think about how this second widget positions the donation, it goes right to the ‘what’s in it for me’?

MARC PITMAN: Oh hey, asking without fear doesn't mean asking stupidly. This is good this is putting the donor first. I love it. That is awesome.

HUNTER BOYLE: That's the thing. The request on the left. It's not something that you know. It's something that we see all the time. It's not that egregious. It makes sense for us thinking about my perspective but if you think about it from user perspective, ‘Rescue dogs, cats, and wildlife. Be a champion for animals for just nine dollars a month. Donate now and other ways to give.’ So the process of running this test was twofold. One, it was designed to increase the amount of donations. Two, the hypothesis was also that they can increase the sustainer donations so rather than that one time donate now box that you see you’ll see the results from this. Hopefully, those just popped up on your screen as well this test widget on the right not only increased the click through's by 98% so just about double the amount of people went through that version of the traffic driver to the donation page. The donation conversion increased by 60% and of that increase 25% of those donors were monthly sustainers. So not only do they increase people going from the homepage to the donation page by changing the widget in these ways, that in turn increased the amount of conversions and that increase also led over into sustainers and monthly donations. So the overall impact increased in three separate ways just by running this first test on this widget and this traffic driver. So, again this is not to say that by copying these changes verbatim on your site you will get astronomical gains but it's to give you a sense for how important this process can be and how you don't need to go into an entirely new website redesign. You can use conversion optimization strategically and in a prioritized fashion on key pages and key elements and get an amazing return on time and investment on it. So that hopefully has some of you salivating right now or just maybe your eyes are like, ‘oh my gosh, when we get these slides I can't wait to talk to my Executive Director etc.’

So, let's look at just couple of other examples real fast I said I could go through these real this really quickly so we can make sure we have time for the action planning part. This is one my favorite welcome emails. This is not a nonprofit but this is an email that I’ve been using as an example for a couple years. Now it's fairly timeless just because so many emails still don't do this, and it's very simple. It's not HTML. It's not, it's not overly designed; it's very simple. It's very kind of arm around the shoulder and one to one. But what it does so perfectly are a couple things. It has the links to social, so when you're getting people into your email list, if you can take that momentum and add them to Facebook or twitter or something as well then you have two to three different ways that you can keep in touch with them so you're not relying just on email or just on social. You get the best of all worlds and those become, as we mentioned, your super fans. Thing number two is the even greater part. But there's just a very short survey and it only has four questions on it, and this email hints of what those are but it doesn't talk about the fourth one, but the fourth one is the most powerful it just says tell me a little bit about yourself, what type of business do you run, company do you work for, what's one thing you think I should know about you? There variations of this where people just ask to reply directly to the emails and say “what's the biggest challenge you’re dealing with right now?” No matter what specific language you might use, if you use the survey or just reply directly to email, use this as an option for your welcome email. You will be amazed by the responses that you get. For this particular email over time as the traffic grew for the site, thousands of real replies came in, and those replies were used to help refine and kind of pretest the copy, the ‘what's in it for me’, the values of the videos and courses that this person does on their site, and all the different projects that they’ve launched are informed by putting the audience first. So this is how you get that ‘what's in it for me’ baked in right from the beginning, and this is how you kind of get to figure out the language that will help you make tests and changes like the one that we just saw. Hey, what's most important to you about this campaign that we’re doing right now?, or what do you love most about our organization?, how can we help you? in putting it into that user perspective or that visitor, audience, and stakeholders perspective. That's going to improve your content segmenting. And as this list grew, this one particular tactic is not what grew the email list by three times over two years, but I can tell you that making this kind of connection with your audience and making sure that your content has that type of relevance and is being driven and propelled by your audience is what's going to make your email opens and your click through rates a lot higher. It's going to make your site visits a lot higher. It's going to lift all boats with engagement so when it comes around to donation time for, you know, planning events and those sorts of things, donor recognition, those kind of things and spreading the word, awareness this is one of those kind of underutilized keys. And it's so easy. And it could take you five minutes to set up this email, another five to set up the survey and then you're just getting this on a roll-in basis.

MARC PITMAN: And as Derek says, and I know I do this six months, six weeks after people sign up for my email, they just get a simple email script from me, not even a link, that just says that you’ve read my posts, you’ve seen some of my updates, what do you wish I wrote more about?


MARC PITMAN: And so they’d reply and they’d tell me. What’s great about this is, and Derek tells you, is when you start having your prime audience start saying “it's like you read my mind”. So when our donors start saying “Wow, you just put that newsletter out and that was exactly my burning question” part of the reason is it's not because you look into a crystal ball, it’s because you asked and you just drop. The system was a big focus group. It wasn't a big campaign. It’s just a part of the system of welcome sequence that had a perpetual research going on that's great, good example. It's all communication, like you said. It’s the ask. It’s engagement. It’s asking for something that's not a donation for a change, you know, sometimes we don’t always do that, you know that's true. You usually regret scrambling to ask when it’s something that we need.

HUNTER BOYLE: So then, last of two examples, this is sort of a brand new, it’s not even a campaign, is just sort of, some of the action steps that I’ve been working with a client on Theatre Horizon here in Philly, so there are no results for this one. I can’t give you a 90% increase or anything like that yet, this is all very much underway, but this is just to help you think about where you are looking for people to connect with your site before your site yourself, right? Before they get there. So, the easiest way to start is with the brand search terms, so I can see right off the bat there’s a Horizon Theatre in Atlanta, that’s actually doing page search campaigns for the Google Ad boards up at the top, that’s kind of interesting. When we look below that, we’ll see those different pieces, Into the Woods, Driving Directions, In the Blood, these are things that you can add, and I’ve blown those up on the right so you can see them a little bit more without squinting. These are things that you can pay attention to, and you can really learn a lot from looking at Google analytics and if you have someone that’s using your site that uses webmaster tools, using the Google tools to help set up what those pages are going to be with site maps and Webmaster tools. So one of the change would be, if you’ll notice on the right, the Theater Horizon “Become a Donor” page shows up down beneath the main block, that’s a little bit problematic. We would much rather have a donator support us up in those top six. There’s Google callouts, that requires making some changes to a little bit of code and a site map and this is where things can get a little bit tricky, like if you have Salesforce, Black water, or another program that’s kind of running your donation aspects or ticket buying aspects, things like that, you may be presented with some challenges to work around. But using the least very basic aspects of Google analytics and keyword searching Webmaster tools to kind of help find and prioritize those areas, that’s a starting point for figuring out which of those key site pages you really want to spend your time on. So again, we’ll see here, for example the homepage, About Us, is a priority page. Staff comes up very high it the mix, but because that shows up visibly in the search engines, but it may not be something people can do a lot with, that wouldn’t be something we would put in our top 3. So this is how you kind of use Google and analytics and that information to help focus on the site pages from an external prospective, as well as your internal prospective. And then again, this is something that was just really rolled out a few weeks ago. We can see the initial version of their page towards the end of last year, last fall, they were doing one of their second shows of the season. Had the Education block at the bottom, the Support Us at the bottom, and the List of Dates down there with some headlines and a lot of text and there’s this kind of rotating banner at the top and then there are yellow highlight that’s going around him symbolizing the theatre. And then there are the social icons up top so this is kind of our typical home page, right, where we have a lot of different options on where we can go and what we can do. And one of the initial first rounds changes that I had suggested and recommended was at least doing a couple different things. So, as we can see, the biggest changes here, there are just a few of them. One is taking that sidebar space and kind of minimizing some of the distractions from the yellow dots which kind of lead the eye down around the page and then working within the framework of the site, which again with the CMS platform, this wasn’t our first and greatest option, but at least putting that email sign-up on the page in a side bar on the page on every page so that we could do a lot more to try and grow the email list whereas without that, it’s kind of tucked down in the fourth option on the About Us level. You’ll see how the section that has those dates and those copy blocks now say Recent Blog Posts, because it wasn’t clear that those are blog posts, and if a blog was something separate. So having that header and using more active posting there March 31, March 30, March 20, 26th. You can see that it’s more active and lively than, you know, the other one, which had a post every couple of months. So during the season, ramping that up a little bit, how to use content a little more differently to show timeliness, and then where it said Education and Support Us before now goes right to that value prop line which is, ‘imagine no homelessness in Montgomery County.’ You will take the play beyond the walls of our theater to reach underserved audiences. That’s a really cool initiative that the theatre is doing, and the way that it frames that is that it puts some of that intrigue as well as that, you know, intended result, out there for people to see, and say “oh, this is something that I really want to click on and learn more about how I can do this”. A little bit differently than just using passive language block like Education or Support Us, which is a fairly common language. Again, while these are still new changes, and we don’t have numbers on those just yet, it’s an example of how without even changing the entire site makeup, working within the framework of what you can do as a small local nonprofit, you can start making these kinds of changes and really get into a process of optimization and trying to record the results and use that as a process.

Alright, so now, I know that we’re a little bit over, but I’m going to go through very quickly, the seven step action plan, and I’m just gonna set this up because you’ll have the slides and you’ll be able to do this. The real intention for this is to take this action plan and use it with the same type of information that we’ve covered for the past hour and apply that to your own site. So, step one is listing your top 3 priority goals. Figuring out what those are, and you can use the rest of the slide deck to kind of go back and refresh your memory on what those are. Those are all broken out back in the earlier stages. So this is really kind of putting all this together and tying it up in a bow. Listing your top three to five site areas to test. We talked about how to find those and how to do those. Looking at the elements and finding out what those top three to five are. This part may get a little bit tricky. There’s a lot of good information online, a lot of it can be best practices, so again, the examples we looked at weren’t exactly copied verbatim so get your mind thinking about what you can do and I’ll point you to some resources that have some more info on that than we have time to cover here today. Reviewing and benchmarking your analytics. If you don’t get into your Google analytics yet regularly, at least get in there one time or have someone help you at least kind of run a baseline report so that you’ll be able to see where you stand now and where the changes can take you.

MARC PITMAN: What would you use if you're not the analytics person but there's somebody else, what's the language, is that running a baseline support report is that?

HUNTER BOYLE: Yeah, basically I would take a year-to-date report just kind of the standard dashboard report, which gives you your overall traffic numbers and adding a couple of breakouts to that so the traffic source and then the pads, top exit pages and bounce rate, usually come up in kind of the standard dashboard report. So Google analytics helps you get like about a third of the way, half way there, just making the timeframe the past year rather than, it gives you the past month by default, so stretching that back to the past year will give you a much better window of time so that you can use that as, you know, again it’s not perfect, but if you’re not a Google analytics, you know, nut, it’ll be enough for you to get going. And then, you know, launching tests, again, you know, this is a really significant process that without an eight hour certification workshop, we’ve only scratched the surface on it, but you know, working with Theatre Horizon and some of the other clients on actions plans. We put these together in a matter of a couple weeks. They worked with their webmaster to launch that and so if you’re a larger nonprofit and you have resources, this might come a little easier to you. If you’re smaller and you’re trying to do a lot yourself with a small team, again, the best thing you can do is just bite off what you can chew and take as much action as you can, so launching that test with that prioritized format.

MARC PITMAN: How do you know how often to tweak it? I mean, do you just give it a 24 hour test like we heard in the Facebook ads webinar a few months ago?

HUNTER BOYLE: No, not exactly. Facebook ads, that’s a little bit different. So the amount of time you’re going to use to test something on your site is going to be variable by your site traffic. So this is the part that, when I talk about these kinds of approaches the optimization in a very distilled manageable format for nonpros, I get in trouble sometimes because, you know, I don’t get into statistical significance, the 99% rate of certainty, and those kinds of things, I believe that’s all very important, and that’s great for people who have, you know, the budget and the staff that can do an entire optimization campaign and, you know, they have $10,000 average budget per month, and they can do all these different things and that’s great. For a lot of the people that I work with, if you’re never going to get to that point, the best that you can do is try and run a test, or run some changes. You’re going to do something anyway. I mean, you’re not going to leave your site the same for the next seven years, so if you’re going to change something, this is at least, you know, this is our next best thing. Right, we don’t have the unicorn and the rainbow to work with, so trying to get the most information that we can out of, you know a traffic sample that might not be a lot of traffic in a couple of weeks’ time or a months’ time. So that’s kind of your mileage may vary thing but at least trying to figure out if it hasn’t hurt the numbers for a couple weeks to a month, then you at the very least have a bit more security about “hey, we’re moving in the right direction”. If you see that it has dramatically helped numbers in some ways, you know like we saw for the, you know, Wildlife Federation test, that’s where you can really see what the impact is and to keep modifying, you know, moving your test into the control, testing something else on that same test platform or trying a different page of the site. So these are decisions that, you know, that have to be made on a specific basis but, that’s the best way to do it. And you know, analyzing the results and determining the next test is what we just discussed right there. So, those are the seven steps, and again, if you aren’t trying to redesign you’re entire website one day, you can at least get through the first three on this one and figure out that plan of action within a day and then that’ll give you the next step to go look at the analytics and refine where you might be looking, that would be kind of day two, analytics and a Google search, and, you know, day three would be setting up what you need, the changes, the copy of the design, day three plus. But then you get to launch them. So, theoretically within a couple of weeks you should in fact be able to at least have something live that you can start looking at so that within a months’ time you should extensively and hopefully have some early results.

MARC PITMAN: And so for people that are listening here, one other thing with the action plan, be sure to think about pages you can actually impact as well as the top pages. Many of us may not have access to the homepage that may be in somebody else’s domain, but we may have access to the fundraising form, and so, Hunter keeps saying, you’ve got to work with what you’ve got and that could be one of the places that, your first case study, Hunter, was a website, a web form that was changed first, and then the start driving more traffic to it. So there’s all different ways you can do this.

HUNTER BOYLE: That’s a great point too. That a really good takeaway. The pages that are on your site that already have that impact, that have potential and an impact and ease, that donation form, before you start optimizing traffic to your critical conversion piece which would be that donation form, get that working as best as you can, and then you improve the traffic drivers to it. If you do it the other way, if you start improving the traffic drivers first, and you send more traffic drivers to that page but you haven’t optimized that one for conversions, then your shooting yourself in the foot. So that’s a great point, Mark, it goes right back to the prioritization, so that key point, let’s use Donation page as an example, is what you want to fix first, and then from there you do the pages that will push people in that direction, so then you’ll have a much better return when they get there because your donation conversions will be higher. Excellent point.

Really quickly on the engagement checklist. And this is one, it’s almost completely self-explanatory so I’ll just breeze through it. What's the number one goal for this page, right? We talked about focus, and we talked about copying content and design elements to really help make that user experience intuitive and actionable. So these are the things that you look for as you're trying to find ways to improve that page. The number one goal for this page. What problem or need has it resolved? Is that value and “what’s in it for me” as clear as possible. If we go back and look at the examples and the cases, like Wildlife donation, you’ll see that this is the same thought process that they used to come up with the test that they ran. Is it easy for the viewer to take action? Is the incentive compelling enough? Changing from Donate now to “hey, say love”. And does the design support the goal, we looked at how those simple changes from moving the payment processing from one stage in the design where the user encounters it to the other stage was more intuitive and less friction and is that design element really going to work. Resources, really quickly. There are a lot of sites that I think have fantastic information on this. Most of them are good friends of mine. They do a really good job with this information. A lot of it may, in fact, be a little bit inside baseball for folks who are just learning about conversion optimization but I do find a lot of it is put forward in a pretty straight forward, plain English, format, so these are some of my favorite blogs and friends on subject:, the blog on, Marketing Props, kissmetrics. I did throw in my own site there, I will be launching a new content section coming very soon, so hopefully when that gets off the ground in a few weeks, you’ll find that a valuable content resource for this type of information and this type of assistance and resources as well. And again you will have the slides after the session, so you can go back and refer to them while you're looking for ideas and things like that, to build your action plan and I just want to say there’s one sort of special bonus, I asked Mark if it would be okay to include this.

MARC PITMAN: So excited for the members.

HUNTER BOYLE: On the live call today, I would love to invite you to please, after you've had a chance to put together your action plan using that framework I will be happy to, if you would email me and shoot over a copy of the action plan and a link to your site, I would love to put together just a complementary 15 minute coffee chat on Skype and sort of go over the plan and any ideas or recommendations that I might have and I’ll try to take a quick look at your site as well and tie those back in to really help give you a little bit more information and guidance to get started. I know how tricky this can be for people who don't do this on a regular basis or don't have a full-blown agency to do it. So I found that, you know, having this action plan will tell, I can take a look at it, look at the site, and do some live optimization pieces that I’ve done before. And it really gives you, hopefully, a great sense for what you can do what you can accomplish with this type of process and some ideas that you can use to help get started and, without becoming a conversion optimization expert or designer or developer, you can at least get to the point where, ‘hey, I have three to five things on three to five areas of my site that I think will make a major impact if I can, you know, run these by you and maybe get our web person or whoever the stakeholders are to approve some of these changes and make some of these changes to the site and maybe we can get a nice boost in donations or this that or the other goal.’

MARC PITMAN: I am so thrilled for this, Hunter. Thank you for offering this. Those of you that are listening to the live presentation, please take him up on this. I did a call like this a year ago with somebody else, not with Hunter, but the way that Hunter’s eyes have been trained, he'll see things really quickly that were just, you won't even considered. And I had a double donation yeah there's an incredible, hundreds of more website visitors to one of my websites because of a page that a call like this discovered that was sitting right there people were already finding but I hadn’t optimized at all. Hunter, I'm really honored that you’d offer this to the members, this is really cool.

HUNTER BOYLE: Thank you very much, I am certainly honored that everyone was joining us on the call here today. I really look forward to seeing some of those action plans. There’s nothing more gratifying to me than kind of seeing people get it and then really start to use the process because it's all about giving back and hoping to help organizations get to their goals because that way everybody wins. So please take down that email you can also find it on Twitter. I think that has been on the footer of every page there. So if you’re using Twitter, Hunter Boyle is my handle there. Optimizationcopilot is the site. There’s the email and, yeah, I would love to really be able to see how folks have taken this information and are putting together an action plan that hopefully we can help with and get some really strong results.

MARC PITMAN: Well, the only question that I see here is from one of our members in Michigan saying “Wow, we have a long way to go with all of this but I look forward to seeing the rest of it”. She had to leave at 2:00 pm. I want to tell everybody on the Academy I've got that the slides, the PowerPoint of these slides or the PDF is already uploaded onto the page and the training, the recording will be uploaded probably within an hour just as long as it takes to convert it to a form that I can do that. This, I know I'm blocking out the next hour look at two of my sites just to see what the top exit and entrance pages are again and find some low hanging fruit there. So, Hunter I am so honored that you take this time with us and I’m excited for optimizationcopilot to see it as it grows because you definitely have the goods and I'm glad you're gonna be able to share it with a global audience this is really cool.

HUNTER BOYLE: Thank you so much, Marc, I really appreciate it. And thank you again to everyone who joined us here today. I really love doing this. I love working with organizations, particularly nonprofits, and anything that I can do to help. Let’s take a look at the action plan and follow me on Twitter, get in touch, Let’s see how we can help each other. I love to hear from you and certainly to hear feedback and your action steps from today. That would be great.

MARC PITMAN: Awesome and so for another edition of the Nonprofit Academy Presents, if you could click to the next slide, we’ll let people know exactly, you could find this in the vault and over 60 other trainings, templates, tools in there and between now and the coaching call, we’ll definitely see you online the Facebook group, after I check out my websites. Have a great time. Bye now.